juan_gandhi: (Default)
[personal profile] juan_gandhi
Вот тут

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcUey-DVYjk
 
"излагают гравитацию" на пяти уровнях: маленькой девочке; 16-летней школьнице; студентке младших курсов; аспиранту; завкафедрой физики.


Маленькая девочка в общем-то вполне врубается в ее уровень, хотя и довольно примитивно; известные мне дети все были гораздо более продвинуты; но в целом же Ей Было Интересно, и в общем-то нормально.

16-летняя, которая планирует стать физиком - уже швах. На половине рассказа ее глаза помутнели (я преподаю, так я вижу это сразу), глядеть она стала не в глаза астрофизику (женщине), а, извините, на ее грудь, и элементарных разъяснений она ни хера не поняла. По мне так контент был для третьего класса (советской школы).

Студентка, якобы физик, при этом китаянка - ну это был абсурд. Внимание она не ослабляла, китаянка все-таки. Но эта физика у нее на уровне седьмого класса (советской) средней школы. Ужас. Т.е. задачи на всякое там бросание шарика под углом она, по-моему, не решит. 

Аспирант-физик, занимается нейтронными звездами. В черной дыре, говорит, space-time breaks down. Но это ладно; так-то вполне нормальный физик, но оба уже перешли на язык, "понятный народу".

Завкафедрой физики из NYU. Смотрит а астрофизика как на говно. Ну, этим разговором я насладился! Не знаю, как вы, я не физик. Но я насладился. Квантовая гравитация! (в изложении для лохов типа меня) 

Но трехмерная голография! 

И тут мы открываем матрицу: https://t.co/UMAeTFyEkT?amp=1

Хорошо эта астрофизик сравнила гравитацию с температурой.




Такие дела.



Date: 2020-08-08 10:14 pm (UTC)
drraug: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drraug
Видео понравилось, спасибо.

Статья не понравилась. Может, я что-то упускаю, но кажется, там написаны какие-то базовые вещи из курса квантовой физики, написано совсем базовое определение нейронной сети, а вот где глубокая связь? Что волновую функцию можно записать как нейронную сеть? Ну да, и то и другое многомерная функция, а что еще надо-то? Пока вы не обсуждаете, какого размера блоки в той сети, и сколько в ней переменных, ну известно что любую многомерную функцию можно записать какой-то нейронной сетью (возможно непрактично большой, это вроде как называется representation theorem). А больше теоретического про нейронные сети ничего не известно по сути-то - трудно определить класс многомерных функций, для которых нейронная сеть даст компактное описание, или не даст компактного описания (компактное в прагматическом смысле влезет ли в память компьютера, а не каком-то возвышенно-математическом смысле). Ну то есть вся статья кажется сводится к representation theorem в применении к волновым функциям. Или я не уловил чего-то, возможно.
Edited Date: 2020-08-08 10:15 pm (UTC)

Date: 2020-08-09 12:19 am (UTC)
ded_maxim: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ded_maxim
Статья полная херь, увы. Зато вот есть какие хорошие штуки: https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.08859

Date: 2020-08-08 10:29 pm (UTC)
yigal_s: (Default)
From: [personal profile] yigal_s
на мой взгляд, абсолютно кошмарный ролик, и "преподавательница" не блещет, говоря политкорректно. А уж зачем они притащили туда гимнастку - вообще загадка.

Я б, пожалуй, поступил так же как гимнастка - уснул бы на середине. Этот поток речи же невозможно слушать, а уж что происходит в голове бедной девочки, что думает, что ракеты пуляют в космос из рогатки, мне даже представить страшно. Ей же ни секунды не дают подумать.

За физику и рацио немножко обидно - там же столько всякого бреда было сказано, и отнюдь не маленькими девочками, а ведущей.
Edited Date: 2020-08-08 10:37 pm (UTC)

Date: 2020-08-09 12:45 am (UTC)
yigal_s: (Default)
From: [personal profile] yigal_s
Я не знаю, с тараканами она или без. Может, она считает, что так надо популяризировать, может она детям преподавать не умеет итд итп. Допускаю, что она просто не очень подготовилась.
Но в целом она, конечно, у меня симпатий не вызывает. Я вообще к женщинам отношусь в науке с подозрением, но вот как-то этой зимой, ещё до карантина, сходил на лекцию по физике, ещё и каким-то женским комитетом организованную, и там была абсолютно нормальная тётка, говорившая с публикой (необразованной) на нормальном интеллектуально-человеческом языке о науке. Было видно, что настоящая работающая ученая, что интеллектуал(ка), что не халтурщица. Сделает она завтра какое-то серьезное открытие - я не удивлюсь. А что в голове у этой, и чем она отличается от кассирши в магазине (пусть она вроде бы и на равных говорит с другим PhD) - ей богу, со стороны и не понятно.
Edited Date: 2020-08-09 01:04 am (UTC)

AstroPop

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Re: AstroPop

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Re: AstroPop

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Date: 2020-08-09 12:50 am (UTC)
yigal_s: (Default)
From: [personal profile] yigal_s
Что тут забавного? Можно поглядеть её сайт, она занимается всяким стендапом помимо (вместо?) науки. Нормального человека ещё надо найти, чтоб он такую беседу захотел провести. А создатели ролика, похоже, не сильно напрягались поиском подходящих кандидатур, нашли какую-то гимнастку в качестве слушательницы, ну вперёд, пусть будет гимнастка.
Edited Date: 2020-08-09 12:51 am (UTC)

Date: 2020-08-09 07:40 am (UTC)
vit_r: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] vit_r
Сложная информация не должна передаваться потоком в форме болтологии.

Date: 2020-08-09 08:41 am (UTC)
drraug: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drraug
А как должна? В формате текстбука?

Ну как раз в форме диалога-то можно хотя бы понять, когда собеседник перестает понимать, и какими-то вопросами это дело поправить. А в формате девяти томов Ландау-Лившица к моменту зачета уже поздно что-то исправлять.

Date: 2020-08-09 09:38 am (UTC)
vit_r: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] vit_r
Не надо путать понимание и иллюзию понимания.

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Date: 2020-08-09 03:19 pm (UTC)
thedeemon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thedeemon
Не знаю, как вы из мимики нескольких минут столько выводов о людях делаете, я б не стал.

"Explains" в названии ролика странно смотрится, она ж никому ничего не объяснила. С аспирантом и профессором ей нечего уже было объяснять, так, поболтать только. Предыдущим объяснять подробно не было времени, можно тоже было лишь поболтать на смежные или даже мало связанные темы. Ну при чем тут равномерно двжущиеся поезда? Да, это затравка для разговора о ТО, но от них до гравитации там еще приличное количество материала, за пять минут не покрыть и части, тогда зачем начинать? Ну поговорили и ладно.

Гравитационная болтовня

Date: 2020-08-09 06:28 pm (UTC)
dennisgorelik: 2020-06-13 in my home office (Default)
From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik
> как вы из мимики нескольких минут столько выводов о людях делаете, я б не стал.

Почему нет?
Попрактиковаться делать быстрые выводы - полезно.
А [начальным] выводам - необязательно быть правильными.

> "Explains" в названии ролика странно смотрится, она ж никому ничего не объяснила

Что-то объяснила, но к физике и гравитации ее объяснения, действительно, имеют мало отношения.
thedeemon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thedeemon
>Почему нет?

Ну вот по вашим репликам в соседнем коменте у меня есть поспешный вывод о том, что с физикой дальше ньютоновской вы не знакомы. И что хорошего будет, если я его озвучу? От поспешных необоснованных выводов один вред обычно.

Sturgeon law

Date: 2020-08-09 06:13 pm (UTC)
dennisgorelik: 2020-06-13 in my home office (Default)
From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik
~~~~~~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
"ninety percent of everything is crap."
~~~~~~

1) 8-years old girl looks promising to me. She is unlikely to become an advanced physicist, but she is likely to grew up into a smart professional in whatever area she will chose.

2) 16-years old girl is a gymnast that would just marry a tech dude she would meet in that tech field she chose. Then she will live happily ever after.
Or, perhaps, she would become a middle-manager or go into sales.

3) The Chinese student - does not get physics. She may become somebody's assistant though.

4) Phd Candidate - is enthusiastic, but a bit sloppy with the understanding of the physics.
Instead of saying that "gravitational collapse [into a neutron star] causes Supernova explosion" - he is stating much more boring and partially incorrect statement:
~~~~~~~~
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1176
So, when a star dies, if the star is massive enough, there's a huge explosion, called a supernova, and the stuff that's left behind that doesn't get blown away collapses into a tiny compact blob called a neutron star.
~~~~~~~~
That statement implies that:
- Supernova explosion may result in the whole stuff to get blown away completely (without a neutron star forming in the end). [That is not true]
- Neutron star forms after supernova explosion. [That is not true, because a neutral star forms before the explosion, not after].

Another sloppy statement from this Phd Candidate:
===
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1225
A black hole is sort of like a neutron star's big brother.
===

But, actually, a black hole does not have to have a neutron star inside. A black hole just needs to be massive enough to prevent light from escaping.

Then a piece of crap from Janna Levin:
~~~~~~~~~~
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1252
The event horizon of the black hole forms, which is the shadow, the curve that's so strong that not even light can escape.
~~~~~~~~~~
A curve of a black hole is "strong"? Really?

Then this crap:
-----
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1236
it collapses to a black hole, and those are so dense that space-time breaks down.
-----
What does "space-time breaks down" even mean?

Then Janna continues:
========
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1265
the star's gone, that black hole is empty.
========

That means that Janna does not understand:
- That mass causes gravity.
- What "black hole" is.

5) Matthew Kleban flirted with Janna in this interview and otherwise had fun in this conversation.
Matthew is, clearly, smart and did not to say anything that would be clearly wrong. But he also did not say anything practically insightful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Kleban

Summary:
Janna Levin produced show that is fun. It just does not have much to do with actual Physics as a science.

Re: Sturgeon law

Date: 2020-08-10 10:14 am (UTC)
thedeemon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thedeemon
>Phd Candidate - is enthusiastic, but a bit sloppy with the understanding of the physics.

They both tried to choose words suitable for the large audience. Choice of words in such settings doesn't reflect someone's understanding. Most popular descriptions of modern physics sound sloppy or even incorrect, because otherwise they get very technical.

>So, when a star dies, if the star is massive enough, there's a huge explosion, called a supernova, and the stuff that's left behind, that doesn't get blown away collapses into a tiny compact blob called a neutron star.
~~~~~~~~
That statement implies that:
- Supernova explosion may result in the whole stuff to get blown away completely


No, there is no such implication here. If there's always some stuff left, we can address it as the stuff that's left behind, the stuff that doesn't get blown away, two wordings of the same thing.

> - Neutron star forms after supernova explosion. [That is not true, because a neutral star forms before the explosion, not after].

Why exactly do you think so? When the outer layers of the original star are still there, can you really call the collapsing core a star?


>Another sloppy statement from this Phd Candidate:
===
A black hole is sort of like a neutron star's big brother.
===
But, actually, a black hole does not have to have a neutron star inside.


He doesn't say there's a neutron star inside, you're making things up again. It's a "big brother" in the sense of being more massive, creating stronger spacetime curvature and often being literally bigger. And "brother" because they are born in very similar processes.



>~~~The event horizon of the black hole forms, which is the shadow, the curve that's so strong that not even light can escape.~~~~~~~~~~
A curve of a black hole is "strong"? Really?


She's talking about spacetime curvature. Yes, black hole curves it stronger (at the "surface"), the very definition of its event horizon has to do with how spacetime is warped there to not let light outside.


>-----
it collapses to a black hole, and those are so dense that space-time breaks down.
-----
What does "space-time breaks down" even mean?


I can think of at least 3 things these words may mean. The swap of signs in the signature of the Schwarzschild metric between time and radius, so radius behaves like time and vice versa. The fact that for a static outside observer the region behind the horizon is excluded from our space, it's in the infinite future, no point on or below the horizon is there "now", no event there is simultaneous to any event of our history (in the simple model of a static black hole). There's also a third sense coming from certain quantum mechanical or string theory descriptions, where there's literally no spacetime at all under the horizon for old enough black holes.
Why do you call "crap" things you've never heard about?

>========
the star's gone, that black hole is empty.
========
That means that Janna does not understand:
- That mass causes gravity.
- What "black hole" is.

No, it doesn't mean that. By Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems once the event horizon forms there's inevitably a singularity inside and all the matter quickly (by that matter's clocks) goes into that singularity and in some sense ceases to be in our spacetime, at least if we only follow the GR equations. All the volume under the horizon (singularity has zero volume) becomes empty space, so she's not incorrect, in pure GR sense. Gravity is not caused by just mass, in GR it's caused by energy and momentum, mass being a special case source of energy. Gravity itself also has gravity (see gravity self-interaction), so one may say the black hole is just the warping of spacetime having the same energy/mass as the matter that formed it. Of course these are more or less speculations based on following general relativity literally, but at least in this sense what she says makes perfect sense. If you don't see it, maybe you don't know what a black hole is? (we all don't know really, all we know is some indirect observations and our theories)

Role of gravity in a supernova explosion

Date: 2020-08-10 12:35 pm (UTC)
dennisgorelik: 2020-06-13 in my home office (Default)
From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik
> No, there is no such implication here.

There is an implication that [allegedly] supernova explosion may blow away the star completely.
That implication comes from our intuitive understanding of how explosion works (from bombs or balloons).
I know - because I was on the receiving end of such sloppy "Supernova explosion" explanation for decades, and this sloppy explanation created a strong impression of the possibility that the whole star may get blown away.
Furthermore, this sloppy "Supernova explosion" explanation created strong impression that the energy for such explosion came from the standard source of energy for stars (fusion) [which is incorrect].

> If there's always some stuff left, we can address it as the stuff that's left behind, the stuff that doesn't get blown away, two wordings of the same thing.

Yes, we can address that later. But why postpone mentioning the most significant effect of gravity on a neutron star (how gravity fuels forms neutron star and causes supernova explosion) -- if you already talk about neutron stars in the context of gravity?
Not only he postponed that explanation. He never mentioned direct connection between gravity energy and supernova explosion at all.

Which makes me think that he does not even know about what energy fuels supernova explosion.


> When the outer layers of the original star are still there, can you really call the collapsing core a star?

I can, but while the core is still collapsing -- I would, probably, prefer to call it a "collapsing core" (not a "neutron star" yet).

Then after star's core gravitationally collapsed -- neutron star is almost ready and only needs to "shed away" the remaining star shell in the following Supernova explosion.


>Another sloppy statement from this Phd Candidate:
===
A black hole is sort of like a neutron star's big brother.
===
But, actually, a black hole does not have to have a neutron star inside.

> He doesn't say there's a neutron star inside

He did not say it explicitly, but what else does "neutron star's big brother" mean?
I understand it as "bigger/special version of a neutron star".

> It's a "big brother" in the sense of being more massive

Yes: more massive neutron star.
If he wanted to say "more massive" and did not mean "neutron star" -- why did he use word "brother"?

Re: Role of gravity in a supernova explosion

From: [personal profile] thedeemon - Date: 2020-08-10 12:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Role of gravity in a supernova explosion

From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik - Date: 2020-08-10 02:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

"The curve that's so strong"

Date: 2020-08-10 01:00 pm (UTC)
dennisgorelik: 2020-06-13 in my home office (Default)
From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik
> Yes, black hole curves it stronger (at the "surface")

What does black hole "curves"?
Geometrical shape?

Do you mean that the curvature is stronger at the "surface" of the black hole than inside of the black hole (closer to the center of the mass)?

Re: "The curve that's so strong"

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Re: "The curve that's so strong"

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Re: "The curve that's so strong"

From: [personal profile] thedeemon - Date: 2020-08-10 03:31 pm (UTC) - Expand

Matter collapse inside a black hole

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Re: Matter collapse inside a black hole

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Gravitational singularity

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Re: Gravitational singularity

From: [personal profile] thedeemon - Date: 2020-08-10 08:24 pm (UTC) - Expand

Can't say anything about black hole?

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Re: Can't say anything about black hole?

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Re: Can't say anything about black hole?

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Re: Can't say anything about black hole?

From: [personal profile] thedeemon - Date: 2020-08-10 10:11 pm (UTC) - Expand

Speed of gravity in a black hole

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Re: Speed of gravity in a black hole

From: [personal profile] thedeemon - Date: 2020-08-10 11:09 pm (UTC) - Expand

"Space-time breaks down" crap

Date: 2020-08-10 01:56 pm (UTC)
dennisgorelik: 2020-06-13 in my home office (Default)
From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik
>> What does "space-time breaks down" even mean?

> I can think of at least 3 things these words may mean.

That multitude of possible interpretations means that the explanation is bad.
Explanation needs to be clear.

> The swap of signs in the signature of the Schwarzschild metric between time and radius, so radius behaves like time and vice versa.

Latitude coordinates South from the equator are on "S" scale, while latitude coordinates North from the equator - are on "N" scale.
But we do not say that at the equator "latitude breaks down".
Similarly, "the swap of signs" is not a reason to use "space-time breaks down" term.

> The fact that for a static outside observer the region behind the horizon is excluded from our space,

Black holes are not excluded from our space.
Black holes just have special behavior and limited visibility.

> it's in the infinite future,

What is "it" that "is in the infinite future"?


> no point on or below the horizon is there "now", no event there is simultaneous to any event of our history (in the simple model of a static black hole).

That is incorrect.
Black holes reliably (and timely) interact with the surrounding material through the gravitational force.
Therefore we can connect black hole events to the events in our history.
For example, in case when a black hole acretes material -- that black hole increases gravitational force on the surrounding objects.

> There's also a third sense coming from certain quantum mechanical or string theory descriptions, where there's literally no spacetime at all under the horizon for old enough black holes.

What is the use of such "no spacetime" mental model?

> Why do you call "crap" things you've never heard about?

I use word "crap" in the sense of "extremely poor quality".
These "explanations" do not help me to reason about the real world, and therefore are "extremely poor quality".

>> the star's gone, that black hole is empty.

> ceases to be in our spacetime, at least if we only follow the GR equations.

It reminds me solipsism.
Allegedly, if I only follow the GR equations close my eyes, then all the world around me disappears.

You are forgetting that these GR equations is only a tool that helps us to model the reality.
These GR equations is not even a full model.
Furthermore, vast majority of Janna Levin's audience is not able to follow these GR equations anyway, so [implicit] references to these GR equations is just a waste of audience time.

Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

From: [personal profile] thedeemon - Date: 2020-08-10 03:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

Black hole gravity

From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik - Date: 2020-08-10 06:24 pm (UTC) - Expand

"In the future"

From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik - Date: 2020-08-10 06:26 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: "In the future"

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Re: "In the future"

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Re: "In the future"

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4D time-space model

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Re: 4D time-space model

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Re: 4D time-space model

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Re: 4D time-space model

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Re: 4D time-space model

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap

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Suitable words

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Black holes vs neutron stars

Date: 2020-08-10 12:46 pm (UTC)
dennisgorelik: 2020-06-13 in my home office (Default)
From: [personal profile] dennisgorelik
> creating stronger spacetime curvature and often being literally bigger.

Are you saying word "stronger" means "bigger"?

> And "brother" because they are born in very similar processes.

Yes.
A very similar process to a neutron star -- is another neutron star.

But black holes and a neutron stars - rely on different properties of gravity:
1) Black hole relies on ability of the gravity to "capture" light.
2) Neutron stars rely on ability of the gravity to keep neutrons together.

But this Phd Candidate failed to contrast that in his explanation, and instead mixed them together in his "big brother" misconception.
Which suggests that this Phd Candidate misunderstands what he is researching at some basic level.

Re: Black holes vs neutron stars

Date: 2020-08-10 01:02 pm (UTC)
thedeemon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thedeemon
>Are you saying word "stronger" means "bigger"?
No.

>black holes and a neutron stars - rely on different properties of gravity
1) Black hole relies on ability of the gravity to "capture" light.
2) Neutron stars rely on ability of the gravity to keep neutrons together.

Oh, let me guess:
3) People rely on ability of the gravity to keep them on the planet.
4) Apples rely on ability of the gravity to deliver them to the ground.
5)...

Are you seriously call it different properties of gravity?

>Which suggests that this Phd Candidate misunderstands what he is researching at some basic level.
No it doesn't. If he doesn't mention something it doesn't mean he doesn't know or understand it.

Re: Black holes vs neutron stars

Date: 2020-08-10 08:56 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] sassa_nf
90% of this must also be crap.

The video did talk about the curvature, in the context of the uniform linear motion of the ISS. It sure should have helped get the idea that 1) and 2) aren't all that different.

Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?

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Re: Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?

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Re: Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?

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Re: Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?

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Full mass-energy equivalence

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Re: Full mass-energy equivalence

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Re: Full mass-energy equivalence

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Re: Full mass-energy equivalence

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Re: Full mass-energy equivalence

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Re: Full mass-energy equivalence

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Gravity-photon interaction

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Re: Gravity-photon interaction

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(no subject)

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Hypothetical past predictions

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Re: Hypothetical past predictions

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Rigid analysis

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Re: Rigid analysis

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Troll vs anti-troll

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Re: Troll vs anti-troll

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Date: 2020-08-14 11:03 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cyrill_999
...кака замечательная ветка, однако :-)

Как говорил один мой знакомый - большое Вам, человеческое, данки шон ! :-)
...давно не получал столько позитивных эммоций, от чтения обсуждения

(no subject)

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