печально я гляжу
Aug. 8th, 2020 12:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Вот тут
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcUey-DVYjk
"излагают гравитацию" на пяти уровнях: маленькой девочке; 16-летней школьнице; студентке младших курсов; аспиранту; завкафедрой физики.
Маленькая девочка в общем-то вполне врубается в ее уровень, хотя и довольно примитивно; известные мне дети все были гораздо более продвинуты; но в целом же Ей Было Интересно, и в общем-то нормально.
16-летняя, которая планирует стать физиком - уже швах. На половине рассказа ее глаза помутнели (я преподаю, так я вижу это сразу), глядеть она стала не в глаза астрофизику (женщине), а, извините, на ее грудь, и элементарных разъяснений она ни хера не поняла. По мне так контент был для третьего класса (советской школы).
Студентка, якобы физик, при этом китаянка - ну это был абсурд. Внимание она не ослабляла, китаянка все-таки. Но эта физика у нее на уровне седьмого класса (советской) средней школы. Ужас. Т.е. задачи на всякое там бросание шарика под углом она, по-моему, не решит.
Аспирант-физик, занимается нейтронными звездами. В черной дыре, говорит, space-time breaks down. Но это ладно; так-то вполне нормальный физик, но оба уже перешли на язык, "понятный народу".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcUey-DVYjk
"излагают гравитацию" на пяти уровнях: маленькой девочке; 16-летней школьнице; студентке младших курсов; аспиранту; завкафедрой физики.
Маленькая девочка в общем-то вполне врубается в ее уровень, хотя и довольно примитивно; известные мне дети все были гораздо более продвинуты; но в целом же Ей Было Интересно, и в общем-то нормально.
16-летняя, которая планирует стать физиком - уже швах. На половине рассказа ее глаза помутнели (я преподаю, так я вижу это сразу), глядеть она стала не в глаза астрофизику (женщине), а, извините, на ее грудь, и элементарных разъяснений она ни хера не поняла. По мне так контент был для третьего класса (советской школы).
Студентка, якобы физик, при этом китаянка - ну это был абсурд. Внимание она не ослабляла, китаянка все-таки. Но эта физика у нее на уровне седьмого класса (советской) средней школы. Ужас. Т.е. задачи на всякое там бросание шарика под углом она, по-моему, не решит.
Аспирант-физик, занимается нейтронными звездами. В черной дыре, говорит, space-time breaks down. Но это ладно; так-то вполне нормальный физик, но оба уже перешли на язык, "понятный народу".
Завкафедрой физики из NYU. Смотрит а астрофизика как на говно. Ну, этим разговором я насладился! Не знаю, как вы, я не физик. Но я насладился. Квантовая гравитация! (в изложении для лохов типа меня)
Но трехмерная голография!
И тут мы открываем матрицу: https://t.co/UMAeTFyEkT?amp=1
Хорошо эта астрофизик сравнила гравитацию с температурой.
Такие дела.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-08 10:14 pm (UTC)Статья не понравилась. Может, я что-то упускаю, но кажется, там написаны какие-то базовые вещи из курса квантовой физики, написано совсем базовое определение нейронной сети, а вот где глубокая связь? Что волновую функцию можно записать как нейронную сеть? Ну да, и то и другое многомерная функция, а что еще надо-то? Пока вы не обсуждаете, какого размера блоки в той сети, и сколько в ней переменных, ну известно что любую многомерную функцию можно записать какой-то нейронной сетью (возможно непрактично большой, это вроде как называется representation theorem). А больше теоретического про нейронные сети ничего не известно по сути-то - трудно определить класс многомерных функций, для которых нейронная сеть даст компактное описание, или не даст компактного описания (компактное в прагматическом смысле влезет ли в память компьютера, а не каком-то возвышенно-математическом смысле). Ну то есть вся статья кажется сводится к representation theorem в применении к волновым функциям. Или я не уловил чего-то, возможно.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 12:03 am (UTC)Туфтяная, значит, статейка. Я смотрел на это с подозрением, типа "неонка в ней", такой стиль - но не будучи специалистом... короче, дурят нашего брата.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 12:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 12:28 am (UTC)This one is practical. Does the solution consists of finding proper quotients for a given basis?
no subject
Date: 2020-08-08 10:29 pm (UTC)Я б, пожалуй, поступил так же как гимнастка - уснул бы на середине. Этот поток речи же невозможно слушать, а уж что происходит в голове бедной девочки, что думает, что ракеты пуляют в космос из рогатки, мне даже представить страшно. Ей же ни секунды не дают подумать.
За физику и рацио немножко обидно - там же столько всякого бреда было сказано, и отнюдь не маленькими девочками, а ведущей.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 12:02 am (UTC)Ага. Я-то не разбираюсь; значит, эта астрофизик тоже не без тараканов. Забавно. Ну или печально, скорее.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 12:45 am (UTC)Но в целом она, конечно, у меня симпатий не вызывает. Я вообще к женщинам отношусь в науке с подозрением, но вот как-то этой зимой, ещё до карантина, сходил на лекцию по физике, ещё и каким-то женским комитетом организованную, и там была абсолютно нормальная тётка, говорившая с публикой (необразованной) на нормальном интеллектуально-человеческом языке о науке. Было видно, что настоящая работающая ученая, что интеллектуал(ка), что не халтурщица. Сделает она завтра какое-то серьезное открытие - я не удивлюсь. А что в голове у этой, и чем она отличается от кассирши в магазине (пусть она вроде бы и на равных говорит с другим PhD) - ей богу, со стороны и не понятно.
AstroPop
Date: 2020-08-09 06:22 pm (UTC)Но 3 миллиона просмотров на YouTube это видео набрало.
Впрочем, за условной Carly Jepsen (с ее 1.2 миллиардов просмотров) у Janna Levin угнаться не получится.
> пусть она вроде бы и на равных говорит с другим PhD
Они флиртуют на равных. В академическом стиле.
Re: AstroPop
Date: 2020-08-09 06:54 pm (UTC)Re: AstroPop
Date: 2020-08-09 07:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 12:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 07:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 08:41 am (UTC)Ну как раз в форме диалога-то можно хотя бы понять, когда собеседник перестает понимать, и какими-то вопросами это дело поправить. А в формате девяти томов Ландау-Лившица к моменту зачета уже поздно что-то исправлять.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 09:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 08:42 pm (UTC)Вопроса это не снимает, в общем-то. Не так сложно показывать пальцем на плохое. Но вот конструктивно и четко обозначить путь к хорошему мало кто может.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 09:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-11 09:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-11 10:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-11 08:41 pm (UTC)Я вижу кучу проблем в современной маркетализованной академии, но никогда не буду рассматривать всерьез вариант переделать с нуля, потому что на это жизни не хватит.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-11 09:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-11 10:57 pm (UTC)Тем более, что вам все равно времени нет рассказывать, так что и слушать в принципе нечего. "Дальше мышки вы уж сами, я не тактик, я стратег". Спасибо, конечно, но стратегов и ломателей до основания и так слишком много, только вот работать что-то некому.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-12 08:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-12 01:20 pm (UTC)А толком вы ничего и не пытались объяснить, у вас же времени на это нет. Но сказали главное, что сидит в голове, и этого сказанного достаточно.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-12 05:17 pm (UTC)Комплекс Всезнайки надо лечить.
Академия развивалась сотни лет, а просрали всё за полвека. Причём, просрали капитально.
А человека, думающего на уровне "Это правильно, потому что так в учебнике написано", можно завалить и показав "план построения вечного двигателя первого рода". Потому как реальный мир гораздо сложнее учебника, и заведя всезнайку на болото неизвестных ему явлений, можно посусанить его там, пока полностью не утопнет.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-09 03:19 pm (UTC)"Explains" в названии ролика странно смотрится, она ж никому ничего не объяснила. С аспирантом и профессором ей нечего уже было объяснять, так, поболтать только. Предыдущим объяснять подробно не было времени, можно тоже было лишь поболтать на смежные или даже мало связанные темы. Ну при чем тут равномерно двжущиеся поезда? Да, это затравка для разговора о ТО, но от них до гравитации там еще приличное количество материала, за пять минут не покрыть и части, тогда зачем начинать? Ну поговорили и ладно.
Гравитационная болтовня
Date: 2020-08-09 06:28 pm (UTC)Почему нет?
Попрактиковаться делать быстрые выводы - полезно.
А [начальным] выводам - необязательно быть правильными.
> "Explains" в названии ролика странно смотрится, она ж никому ничего не объяснила
Что-то объяснила, но к физике и гравитации ее объяснения, действительно, имеют мало отношения.
Re: Гравитационная болтовня
Date: 2020-08-10 09:26 am (UTC)Ну вот по вашим репликам в соседнем коменте у меня есть поспешный вывод о том, что с физикой дальше ньютоновской вы не знакомы. И что хорошего будет, если я его озвучу? От поспешных необоснованных выводов один вред обычно.
Re: Гравитационная болтовня
Date: 2020-08-10 11:45 am (UTC)На основании какого именно высказывания вам показалось, что я не знаком с физикой дальше ньютоновской?
> И что хорошего будет, если я его озвучу?
Такое озвучивание с хорошей вероятностью может помочь исправить ошибку (либо мою ошибку, либо вашу ошибку).
Исправлять ошибки же, обычно - хорошо, верно?
> необоснованных выводов один вред обычно
Так выводы же обоснованные. Просто обоснование может быть не очень надежным.
Но без обсуждения гипотез может быть сложно найти ошибки в обоснованиях.
Sturgeon law
Date: 2020-08-09 06:13 pm (UTC)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
"ninety percent of everything is crap."
~~~~~~
1) 8-years old girl looks promising to me. She is unlikely to become an advanced physicist, but she is likely to grew up into a smart professional in whatever area she will chose.
2) 16-years old girl is a gymnast that would just marry a tech dude she would meet in that tech field she chose. Then she will live happily ever after.
Or, perhaps, she would become a middle-manager or go into sales.
3) The Chinese student - does not get physics. She may become somebody's assistant though.
4) Phd Candidate - is enthusiastic, but a bit sloppy with the understanding of the physics.
Instead of saying that "gravitational collapse [into a neutron star] causes Supernova explosion" - he is stating much more boring and partially incorrect statement:
~~~~~~~~
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1176
So, when a star dies, if the star is massive enough, there's a huge explosion, called a supernova, and the stuff that's left behind that doesn't get blown away collapses into a tiny compact blob called a neutron star.
~~~~~~~~
That statement implies that:
- Supernova explosion may result in the whole stuff to get blown away completely (without a neutron star forming in the end). [That is not true]
- Neutron star forms after supernova explosion. [That is not true, because a neutral star forms before the explosion, not after].
Another sloppy statement from this Phd Candidate:
===
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1225
A black hole is sort of like a neutron star's big brother.
===
But, actually, a black hole does not have to have a neutron star inside. A black hole just needs to be massive enough to prevent light from escaping.
Then a piece of crap from Janna Levin:
~~~~~~~~~~
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1252
The event horizon of the black hole forms, which is the shadow, the curve that's so strong that not even light can escape.
~~~~~~~~~~
A curve of a black hole is "strong"? Really?
Then this crap:
-----
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1236
it collapses to a black hole, and those are so dense that space-time breaks down.
-----
What does "space-time breaks down" even mean?
Then Janna continues:
========
https://youtu.be/QcUey-DVYjk?t=1265
the star's gone, that black hole is empty.
========
That means that Janna does not understand:
- That mass causes gravity.
- What "black hole" is.
5) Matthew Kleban flirted with Janna in this interview and otherwise had fun in this conversation.
Matthew is, clearly, smart and did not to say anything that would be clearly wrong. But he also did not say anything practically insightful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Kleban
Summary:
Janna Levin produced show that is fun. It just does not have much to do with actual Physics as a science.
Re: Sturgeon law
Date: 2020-08-09 07:14 pm (UTC)Good observations!
Re: Sturgeon law
Date: 2020-08-10 10:14 am (UTC)They both tried to choose words suitable for the large audience. Choice of words in such settings doesn't reflect someone's understanding. Most popular descriptions of modern physics sound sloppy or even incorrect, because otherwise they get very technical.
>So, when a star dies, if the star is massive enough, there's a huge explosion, called a supernova, and the stuff that's left behind, that doesn't get blown away collapses into a tiny compact blob called a neutron star.
~~~~~~~~
That statement implies that:
- Supernova explosion may result in the whole stuff to get blown away completely
No, there is no such implication here. If there's always some stuff left, we can address it as the stuff that's left behind, the stuff that doesn't get blown away, two wordings of the same thing.
> - Neutron star forms after supernova explosion. [That is not true, because a neutral star forms before the explosion, not after].
Why exactly do you think so? When the outer layers of the original star are still there, can you really call the collapsing core a star?
>Another sloppy statement from this Phd Candidate:
===
A black hole is sort of like a neutron star's big brother.
===
But, actually, a black hole does not have to have a neutron star inside.
He doesn't say there's a neutron star inside, you're making things up again. It's a "big brother" in the sense of being more massive, creating stronger spacetime curvature and often being literally bigger. And "brother" because they are born in very similar processes.
>~~~The event horizon of the black hole forms, which is the shadow, the curve that's so strong that not even light can escape.~~~~~~~~~~
A curve of a black hole is "strong"? Really?
She's talking about spacetime curvature. Yes, black hole curves it stronger (at the "surface"), the very definition of its event horizon has to do with how spacetime is warped there to not let light outside.
>-----
it collapses to a black hole, and those are so dense that space-time breaks down.
-----
What does "space-time breaks down" even mean?
I can think of at least 3 things these words may mean. The swap of signs in the signature of the Schwarzschild metric between time and radius, so radius behaves like time and vice versa. The fact that for a static outside observer the region behind the horizon is excluded from our space, it's in the infinite future, no point on or below the horizon is there "now", no event there is simultaneous to any event of our history (in the simple model of a static black hole). There's also a third sense coming from certain quantum mechanical or string theory descriptions, where there's literally no spacetime at all under the horizon for old enough black holes.
Why do you call "crap" things you've never heard about?
>========
the star's gone, that black hole is empty.
========
That means that Janna does not understand:
- That mass causes gravity.
- What "black hole" is.
No, it doesn't mean that. By Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems once the event horizon forms there's inevitably a singularity inside and all the matter quickly (by that matter's clocks) goes into that singularity and in some sense ceases to be in our spacetime, at least if we only follow the GR equations. All the volume under the horizon (singularity has zero volume) becomes empty space, so she's not incorrect, in pure GR sense. Gravity is not caused by just mass, in GR it's caused by energy and momentum, mass being a special case source of energy. Gravity itself also has gravity (see gravity self-interaction), so one may say the black hole is just the warping of spacetime having the same energy/mass as the matter that formed it. Of course these are more or less speculations based on following general relativity literally, but at least in this sense what she says makes perfect sense. If you don't see it, maybe you don't know what a black hole is? (we all don't know really, all we know is some indirect observations and our theories)
Role of gravity in a supernova explosion
Date: 2020-08-10 12:35 pm (UTC)There is an implication that [allegedly] supernova explosion may blow away the star completely.
That implication comes from our intuitive understanding of how explosion works (from bombs or balloons).
I know - because I was on the receiving end of such sloppy "Supernova explosion" explanation for decades, and this sloppy explanation created a strong impression of the possibility that the whole star may get blown away.
Furthermore, this sloppy "Supernova explosion" explanation created strong impression that the energy for such explosion came from the standard source of energy for stars (fusion) [which is incorrect].
> If there's always some stuff left, we can address it as the stuff that's left behind, the stuff that doesn't get blown away, two wordings of the same thing.
Yes, we can address that later. But why postpone mentioning the most significant effect of gravity on a neutron star (how gravity fuels forms neutron star and causes supernova explosion) -- if you already talk about neutron stars in the context of gravity?
Not only he postponed that explanation. He never mentioned direct connection between gravity energy and supernova explosion at all.
Which makes me think that he does not even know about what energy fuels supernova explosion.
> When the outer layers of the original star are still there, can you really call the collapsing core a star?
I can, but while the core is still collapsing -- I would, probably, prefer to call it a "collapsing core" (not a "neutron star" yet).
Then after star's core gravitationally collapsed -- neutron star is almost ready and only needs to "shed away" the remaining star shell in the following Supernova explosion.
>Another sloppy statement from this Phd Candidate:
===
A black hole is sort of like a neutron star's big brother.
===
But, actually, a black hole does not have to have a neutron star inside.
> He doesn't say there's a neutron star inside
He did not say it explicitly, but what else does "neutron star's big brother" mean?
I understand it as "bigger/special version of a neutron star".
> It's a "big brother" in the sense of being more massive
Yes: more massive neutron star.
If he wanted to say "more massive" and did not mean "neutron star" -- why did he use word "brother"?
Re: Role of gravity in a supernova explosion
Date: 2020-08-10 12:51 pm (UTC)Regarding "why brother", already told you: they are born very similarly. What makes someone your brother? Common parent. Here too, black holes and neutron stars have a common parent, a big collapsing star.
Re: Role of gravity in a supernova explosion
Date: 2020-08-10 02:16 pm (UTC)Yes.
When it was acceptable for me to explain neutron star as a result of supernova explosion [without mentioning that neutron star formation caused that supernova explosion] -- I had a misconception about the energy that produced that supernova explosion.
Now that I no longer have that misconception -- I do not allow myself to separate that gravitational energy source from the explanation that already includes neuron star and supernova explosion.
So now when I see such obsolete explanation (without mentioning gravity as a supernova explosion energy source) -- I assume that the narrator has a similar misconception that I once had.
Do you think it is unreasonable to make such assumption?
> black holes and neutron stars have a common parent, a big collapsing star
1) "A big collapsing star" is a source of material for a black hole (not a "parent").
2) Black holes do not have to have "A big collapsing star" as a source of material.
For example, a black hole may form from multiple stars merging with each other.
So that "Big brother [of a neuron star]" analogy is quite misleading in explanation of what a black hole is.
"The curve that's so strong"
Date: 2020-08-10 01:00 pm (UTC)What does black hole "curves"?
Geometrical shape?
Do you mean that the curvature is stronger at the "surface" of the black hole than inside of the black hole (closer to the center of the mass)?
Re: "The curve that's so strong"
Date: 2020-08-10 01:07 pm (UTC)Spacetime as a manifold in Riemannian geometry.
>Do you mean that the curvature is stronger at the "surface" of the black hole than inside of the black hole (closer to the center of the mass)?
No. I'm comparing curvature properties at the "surface" of a black hole and at the surface of a neutron star. One makes all light cones turn inwards, the other doesn't. In this sense the first is stronger.
Re: "The curve that's so strong"
Date: 2020-08-10 03:05 pm (UTC)Now compare it with: "The event horizon of the black hole forms, which is the shadow, the curve that's so strong"
Referring to "curve" right after "shadow" suggests to the listener that Janna Levin meant geometrical shape, not "a manifold in Riemannian geometry".
Even if Janna has a correct understanding in her head (which I doubt), her explanation is quite sloppy and misleading.
> I'm comparing curvature properties at the "surface" of a black hole and at the surface of a neutron star.
What if a black hole has a neutron star inside it -- would you say that curvature properties "at the surface of a black hole" are stronger than "inside of that black hole" (AKA "at the surface of a neutron star inside of that black hole")?
Re: "The curve that's so strong"
Date: 2020-08-10 03:31 pm (UTC)Neutron star inside a black hole would not exist, no matter inside BH can resist collapsing further towards singularity. If GR models of black holes are correct about what's inside, then the closer to the singularity, the stronger the curvature. The curvature scalar is proportional to 1/R^2.
Matter collapse inside a black hole
Date: 2020-08-10 05:46 pm (UTC)Under "BH" here do you mean, specifically, non-rotating black hole?
Do you mean that inside non-rotating black hole even individual neutrons collapse further into a soup of individual particles?
Re: Matter collapse inside a black hole
Date: 2020-08-10 06:17 pm (UTC)I'm not sure what exactly neutrons collapse into (or maybe they remain neutrons), but as long as GR works there, they inevitably all come to the singularity.
Gravitational singularity
Date: 2020-08-10 08:03 pm (UTC)"Gravitational singularity" implies that neutrons collapse too.
2) Most likely there is some limit to that gravitational collapse into singularity. At some extremely small size [a black hole content is squeezed into], one of [poorly understood] forces will be able to counteract gravity and prevent further collapse.
Re: Gravitational singularity
Date: 2020-08-10 08:24 pm (UTC)Can't say anything about black hole?
Date: 2020-08-10 08:46 pm (UTC)1) We still can observe that some specific mass still exists inside of a black hole, right?
2) We still can hypothesize that this mass collapsed into a very small size [that is similar to theoretical gravitational singularity from our perspective].
Re: Can't say anything about black hole?
Date: 2020-08-10 09:07 pm (UTC)Here's a question for you: if you're in a ship hovering a million km away from a black hole and you fire a torpedo that moves at million km / hour towards the BH, how soon, by your clock, will the torpedo reach the black hole horizon? When will you see it?
2) Yes.
Re: Can't say anything about black hole?
Date: 2020-08-10 09:54 pm (UTC)The torpedo is likely to accelerate due to gravitational pull from the black hole.
So the torpedo will reach the black hole horizon faster than in 1 hour.
However I will not see how torpedo reaches that black hole horizon, because the light informing me about the torpedo movement will come to me slower and slower [depending on how close that torpedo is to the black hole event horizon].
When torpedo is almost at the event horizon, the light from that torpedo will be moving back to me at almost zero speed, so I will have to wait almost indefinitely in order to see it.
Re: Can't say anything about black hole?
Date: 2020-08-10 10:11 pm (UTC)In GR there is gravitational time dilation that makes things more interesting. According to GR in your frame of reference the torpedo will first indeed accelerate but then closer to the BH it will slow down, basically halting near the horizon. In GR, by your clock, the torpedo will never reach the horizon. Not in a day, not in a year. Literally never in the simple model of a static BH.
And because time ticks differently depending on where you are and how you move, it's not so obvious how to define the set of events simultaneous to you now. A common approach is to say an event N light seconds away is simultaneous to you now if light from that event will reach you in N seconds. Because of time dilation near massive bodies, coming from some places will take more time than from others of the same distance, so if you carefully trace such set of simultaneous events it won't be a plane, it will be a non-flat hypersurface that goes around the BH never touching it. No wonder since light cannot leave the BH horizon.
Speed of gravity in a black hole
Date: 2020-08-10 10:31 pm (UTC)Why not use gravitational signals for that?
The speed of gravity is the same as speed of light in vacuum, right?
And the speed of gravity is not dilated near/in black holes, right?
That means we can measure gravitational changes in order to measure when a gravity altering event happen.
Re: Speed of gravity in a black hole
Date: 2020-08-10 11:09 pm (UTC)"Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 01:56 pm (UTC)> I can think of at least 3 things these words may mean.
That multitude of possible interpretations means that the explanation is bad.
Explanation needs to be clear.
> The swap of signs in the signature of the Schwarzschild metric between time and radius, so radius behaves like time and vice versa.
Latitude coordinates South from the equator are on "S" scale, while latitude coordinates North from the equator - are on "N" scale.
But we do not say that at the equator "latitude breaks down".
Similarly, "the swap of signs" is not a reason to use "space-time breaks down" term.
> The fact that for a static outside observer the region behind the horizon is excluded from our space,
Black holes are not excluded from our space.
Black holes just have special behavior and limited visibility.
> it's in the infinite future,
What is "it" that "is in the infinite future"?
> no point on or below the horizon is there "now", no event there is simultaneous to any event of our history (in the simple model of a static black hole).
That is incorrect.
Black holes reliably (and timely) interact with the surrounding material through the gravitational force.
Therefore we can connect black hole events to the events in our history.
For example, in case when a black hole acretes material -- that black hole increases gravitational force on the surrounding objects.
> There's also a third sense coming from certain quantum mechanical or string theory descriptions, where there's literally no spacetime at all under the horizon for old enough black holes.
What is the use of such "no spacetime" mental model?
> Why do you call "crap" things you've never heard about?
I use word "crap" in the sense of "extremely poor quality".
These "explanations" do not help me to reason about the real world, and therefore are "extremely poor quality".
>> the star's gone, that black hole is empty.
> ceases to be in our spacetime, at least if we only follow the GR equations.
It reminds me solipsism.
Allegedly, if I
only follow the GR equationsclose my eyes, then all the world around me disappears.You are forgetting that these GR equations is only a tool that helps us to model the reality.
These GR equations is not even a full model.
Furthermore, vast majority of Janna Levin's audience is not able to follow these GR equations anyway, so [implicit] references to these GR equations is just a waste of audience time.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 03:23 pm (UTC)>Latitude coordinates South from the equator are on "S" scale, while latitude coordinates North from the equator - are on "N" scale.
But we do not say that at the equator "latitude breaks down".
Unlike positive-negative latitudes, when time and space exchange signs in the metric signature this is expected to mean they exchange roles, this is something qualitatively more significant. But you're right that it might not exactly deserve to be called "breaks down". Maybe they had some other effects in mind.
>> The fact that for a static outside observer the region behind the horizon is excluded from our space,
>Black holes are not excluded from our space.
Geometrically they are, at least in certain frames of reference, like one of a static outside observer. I you define space of current moment as a set of events (points in 4D spacetime) that are simultaneous to you now, then the events behind the BH horizon are not included in this set. That's how GR sees it, at least.
>> it's in the infinite future,
>What is "it" that "is in the infinite future"?
The region (set of events) behind the horizon.
>> no point on or below the horizon is there "now", no event there is simultaneous to any event of our history (in the simple model of a static black hole).
That is incorrect.
Black holes reliably (and timely) interact with the surrounding material through the gravitational force.
Now you're just showing you're not familiar with general relativity.
>> There's also a third sense coming from certain quantum mechanical or string theory descriptions, where there's literally no spacetime at all under the horizon for old enough black holes.
>What is the use of such "no spacetime" mental model?
I don't know, I'm not familiar with those particular model. It's supposed to solve (or try to) certain paradoxes of quantum information vs. black holes, see "the black hole war".
>Furthermore, vast majority of Janna Levin's audience is not able to follow these GR equations anyway, so [implicit] references to these GR equations is just a waste of audience time.
I believe when talking to an expert ther were allowed to refer to their knowledge of advanced theories, otherwise how would their dialog be different from a dialog with a child? They tried not to be too intimidating for the viewers but there's a conflict between clarity for general audience and technical correctness. So whatever they say you'll always attack them for being either not technically correct or being too unclear for an outsider.
Black hole gravity
Date: 2020-08-10 06:24 pm (UTC)> Now you're just showing you're not familiar with general relativity.
What mistake do you see in my claim?
Do you mean that if black hole does not have gravitational force that pulls surrounding objects toward the black hole?
"In the future"
Date: 2020-08-10 06:26 pm (UTC)> The region (set of events) behind the horizon.
You [incorrectly] imply here that "The region" is the same as "set of events [in that region]".
But these are not the same.
"The region" includes black hole content as well.
Even if we cannot observe events that happen with the content inside of a black hole, we still can observe [through gravitational force] that the content of the black hole is still inside of the black hole currently (and that content did not jump to the future).
Re: "In the future"
Date: 2020-08-10 06:52 pm (UTC)Re: "In the future"
Date: 2020-08-10 07:31 pm (UTC)... only because the definition you used was confusing.
~~~~~
The region (set of events)
~~~~~
I want to understand you correctly, so I showed my understanding of what you wrote and my confusion about it.
If you meant "events only" then why you did not define it as "All events inside of black hole"?
Re: "In the future"
Date: 2020-08-10 07:57 pm (UTC)4D time-space model
Date: 2020-08-10 08:51 pm (UTC)What is the advantage of modeling black hole in terms of 4D manifold as opposing to modeling black hole events on an isolated time scale [+ 3D space]?
Does this 4D model help you to reason?
I find 4D model almost useless as a reasoning tool most of the time, because time and space behave quite differently from each other.
Re: 4D time-space model
Date: 2020-08-10 09:16 pm (UTC)I'm not surprised by your attitude towards isolating time from space, it's only natural if you never got past Newtonian physics. However one of the basic ideas in special relativity (that only gets more interesting in GR) is that simultaneity is relative, it's dependent on a frame of reference, there is no absolute "now". Switching between reference frames is very much like rotation in spacetime, so treating this geometrically helps immensely.
Re: 4D time-space model
Date: 2020-08-10 11:07 pm (UTC)It does not look simple to me:
https://www.askamathematician.com/2010/09/q-how-does-the-twin-paradox-work/comment-page-1/
This geometrical representation (triangle) still does not explain why Alice is getting 1 side and Bob is getting 2 sides, even though Alice is moving relative to Bob.
> Do you know there is no gravitational force in GR?
I do not know that.
Does "no gravitational force" model make it easier to reason about the real world problems that have gravitational force in it?
Re: 4D time-space model
Date: 2020-08-10 11:27 pm (UTC)In GR you can use not just inertial frames of reference but accelerating ones too, however spacetime in them may look warped even when it's empty and not distorted by massive bodies.
>Does "no gravitational force" model make it easier to reason about the real world problems that have gravitational force in it?
Sometimes. Not many people's "real world problems" require anything beyond Newton's mechanics. But GR provides a certain worldview, a framework with certain explanatory power.
People took atomic clocks and flew them on planes around the world in opposite directions: East and West. How to see why one clock ticked less time than the other? With a geometric approach it becomes obvious once you learn how to use it.
Re: 4D time-space model
Date: 2020-08-11 12:37 am (UTC)Thank you - I will try to remember your view on 4D time-space model.
> Not many people's "real world problems" require anything beyond Newton's mechanics.
That is an important point too.
Digging dipper at this time seems a bit impractical for me, because learning to reason within 4D time-space is quite time-consuming, and I am not a professional physicist, so there is no compelling reason to prioritise learning in that "4D time-space modeling" direction.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 06:34 pm (UTC)It is ok to explicitly mention General Relativity or some of General Relativity concepts.
It is not ok to use concepts [such as "curve" that is "strong"] that implicitly refer to the complex calculations deep inside General Relativity formulas.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 07:04 pm (UTC)Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 07:42 pm (UTC)Is this a funny question about physics and gravitation? I did enjoy it.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 07:53 pm (UTC)Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 07:56 pm (UTC)Because you prove by analogy.
How about crossing the equator the latitude stops being degrees of angular distance, and becomes degrees Celsius, and ambient temperature becomes angular distance.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 08:19 pm (UTC)In this case I may say that coordinate system changes [crossing the equator].
I still would not say that the coordinate system breaks down.
Do you, personally, think in terms of "Space-time breaks down" [at a black hole event horizon]?
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 08:30 pm (UTC)I enjoy your discussion, guys.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 09:21 pm (UTC)How about acceleration flipping from m/s^2 to s/m^2? No? Not weird? Take that as an illustration only.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 10:09 pm (UTC)What else do you expect here?
> How about acceleration flipping from m/s^2 to s/m^2?
Why would acceleration flip from crossing the equator?
If there are different coordinate systems North vs South of equators, then for our calculation purposes we would just normalize our measurements to a universal system.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-11 06:00 am (UTC)Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-11 02:41 pm (UTC)Changing labels' names does not change behavior.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 08:32 pm (UTC)As that woman said in the 5th part, gravity is like temperature.
Re: "Space-time breaks down" crap
Date: 2020-08-10 09:41 pm (UTC)But I do get the idea how "force" is just a label to a "thing" that we demand to be the cause of the change of velocity. Sometimes we have to invent these "things" to fit the framework of causes and consequences - like the Coriolis force pops out of thin air to explain the curved trajectory of a ball as observed from a merry-go-round.
Suitable words
Date: 2020-08-10 02:48 pm (UTC)Yes.
But they failed to choose suitable words at the large degree.
On one hand, they used over-complicated and confusing concepts that most of their audience cannot understand (e.g. "space-time breaks down").
On another hand, misconceptions they introduced are too strong and are not really helpful (e.g. "big brother of neuron star").
> Most popular descriptions of modern physics sound sloppy or even incorrect
Yes - "ninety percent of everything is crap".
But good explanations (e.g. Richard Feynman explanations) still manage to stay informative, simple enough, and correct (or almost correct).
Black holes vs neutron stars
Date: 2020-08-10 12:46 pm (UTC)Are you saying word "stronger" means "bigger"?
> And "brother" because they are born in very similar processes.
Yes.
A very similar process to a neutron star -- is another neutron star.
But black holes and a neutron stars - rely on different properties of gravity:
1) Black hole relies on ability of the gravity to "capture" light.
2) Neutron stars rely on ability of the gravity to keep neutrons together.
But this Phd Candidate failed to contrast that in his explanation, and instead mixed them together in his "big brother" misconception.
Which suggests that this Phd Candidate misunderstands what he is researching at some basic level.
Re: Black holes vs neutron stars
Date: 2020-08-10 01:02 pm (UTC)No.
>black holes and a neutron stars - rely on different properties of gravity
1) Black hole relies on ability of the gravity to "capture" light.
2) Neutron stars rely on ability of the gravity to keep neutrons together.
Oh, let me guess:
3) People rely on ability of the gravity to keep them on the planet.
4) Apples rely on ability of the gravity to deliver them to the ground.
5)...
Are you seriously call it different properties of gravity?
>Which suggests that this Phd Candidate misunderstands what he is researching at some basic level.
No it doesn't. If he doesn't mention something it doesn't mean he doesn't know or understand it.
Re: Black holes vs neutron stars
Date: 2020-08-10 02:34 pm (UTC)> 4) Apples rely on ability of the gravity to deliver them to the ground.
People are much more similar to apples than neurons are similar to light.
So the gravitational impact on all material objects (including people, apples, and neurons) -- is very similar.
But gravitational impact on electromagnetic radiation is a different than gravitational impact on material objects.
> Are you seriously call it different properties of gravity?
Yes - different enough to discuss gravitational effect on neurons and gravitational effect on light -- separately.
> If he doesn't mention something it doesn't mean he doesn't know or understand it.
I wrote "suggests", not "means".
There is no guarantee that this Phd Candidate misunderstands what causes supernova explosion, but if he failed to mention gravity when it was important to mention gravity -- then he, likely, misunderstands.
Re: Black holes vs neutron stars
Date: 2020-08-10 04:21 pm (UTC)В интернете пишут, что этот взрыв - есть отскок внешних слоёв звезды, ударяющихся об сформировавшееся нейтронное ядро. Проблема, на мой невежественный взгляд, однако, что при таком отскоке внешние слои могут отскочить лишь на первоначальную высоту, т.е. высоту равную радиусу звезды.
Откуда берется энергия на взрыв сверхновой
Date: 2020-08-10 09:15 pm (UTC)Это уменьшает радиус ядра звезды.
Уменьшенный радиус - приводит к увеличению давления на атомы, в результате чего атомы сжимаются до уровня нейронов.
Это уменьшает размер звезды на несколько порядков.
При это выделяется огромное количество энергии (за счет потенциальной энергии гравитации).
Причем эта энергия гравитационного коллапса выделяется очень быстро, в течение нескольких минут.
Эта энергия должна куда-то рассеяться. Часть этой энергии рассеивается в виде разлетающихся нейтронов, нейтрино и электромагнитных волн.
Вот эти разлетающиеся частицы и волны и производят взрыв сверхновой.
Re: Откуда берется энергия на взрыв сверхновой
Date: 2020-08-10 09:33 pm (UTC)Re: Откуда берется энергия на взрыв сверхновой
Date: 2020-08-10 10:03 pm (UTC)При уменьшении размеров звезды - потенциальная энергия ядра звезды уменьшается и (частично) трансформируется в энергию взрыва (и, в результате, в увеличении кинетической и потенциальной энергии разлетающихся оболочек взорвавшейся звезды).
> единственный источник энергии - уменьшение размеров ядра
Вы имеете ввиду - nuclear fusion?
Nuclear fusion подогревает звезды и предотвращает гравитационный коллапс.
И лишь когда звезда "выгорает" и nuclear fusion замедляется -- начинается гравитационный коллапс с последующим взрывом сверхновой [если звезда достаточно большая].
Re: Откуда берется энергия на взрыв сверхновой
Date: 2020-08-11 01:19 am (UTC)Нет. Я имею в виду ядро звезды, т.е. ту её часть, что превращается в нейтронную звезду.
Т.е. я имел в виду, что энергия взрыва берётся из энергии, выделившейся от гравитационного коллапса ядра звезды. Что до энергии от сжатия внешних оболочек, то их, как мне кажется, может хватить лишь на отскок до преждней высоты (т.е. до высоты исходного радиуса звезды)
Re: Откуда берется энергия на взрыв сверхновой
Date: 2020-08-11 01:29 am (UTC)Уменьшение размеров звезды позволяет гравитационному коллапсу случиться.
Пока звезда большая - у нее плотность слишком маленькая для того, чтобы в ядре звезды произошел гравитационный коллапс.
Re: Откуда берется энергия на взрыв сверхновой
Date: 2020-08-11 07:02 am (UTC)If the star consists of parts A and B, then if A's potential energy can be transferred to B's potential energy, you end up with higher potential energy of B. So if A goes down (the core collapses), then B can go up (outer layers blown up).
Like gravity assist for spacecraft - spacecraft only gets the energy transferred by the planet's gravity.
Re: Black holes vs neutron stars
Date: 2020-08-10 08:56 pm (UTC)The video did talk about the curvature, in the context of the uniform linear motion of the ISS. It sure should have helped get the idea that 1) and 2) aren't all that different.
Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?
Date: 2020-08-10 09:29 pm (UTC)Nope.
90% of everything is crap.
Not "90% of anything".
> It sure should have helped get the idea that 1) and 2) aren't all that different.
Under "aren't all that different" do you mean that these 2 ideas do not deserve to be considered separately from each other?
~~~~
1) Black hole relies on ability of the gravity to "capture" light.
2) Neutron stars rely on ability of the gravity to keep neutrons together.
~~~~
How does talk "about the curvature, in the context of the uniform linear motion of the ISS" help to come to that conclusion?
Re: Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?
Date: 2020-08-10 09:48 pm (UTC)well, that didn't stop you from labelling 90% of something else on its own, not considered as part of a whole.
> How does talk "about the curvature, in the context of the uniform linear motion of the ISS" help to come to that conclusion?
Isn't it obvious then that the light can't escape a black hole not because gravity pulls on it as a particle of some weight? It's more like a black hole, like any object with a mass, redefines the meaning of what a straight line is.
Re: Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?
Date: 2020-08-10 10:20 pm (UTC)Correct.
"90% of everything is crap" guideline suggests that encountering crap should not be a surprise.
So when I saw crappy claims in that video -- I was not surprised.
> Isn't it obvious then that the light can't escape a black hole not because gravity pulls on it as a particle of some weight?
I do not understand what you are asking.
1) Light cannot escape gravity because gravity pulls on it as a particle.
2) It is not obvious.
3) I still do not see the connection between that talk about the curvature and why light cannot escape.
> like any object with a mass, redefines the meaning of what a straight line is
Ok.
But how does it prove that gravitational impact on light should not be considered separately from gravitational impact on mass?
Re: Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?
Date: 2020-08-11 05:27 am (UTC)3) it should become obvious once you fail to find nonzero mass of the light particle and show the gravitational pull on the massless particle.
Re: Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?
Date: 2020-08-11 02:50 pm (UTC)Light particle has mass equivalent:
m = E / c^2
> 3) it should become obvious once you fail to find nonzero mass of the light particle and show the gravitational pull on the massless particle.
I struggle to understand what "fail to find nonzero mass of the light particle" means (let alone to execute it).
So the connection [between that talk about the curvature and why light cannot escape] is, at least, not obvious.
Re: Light vs neutrons - aren't all that different?
Date: 2020-08-11 06:49 pm (UTC)E = m×c2 is true only for bodies at rest. A photon is moving, so you can't use that formula.
The full formula is:
E2 = m2×c4 + p2×c2, where p is the momentum. (When the body is not moving, p is zero, and you get the former formula)
Full mass-energy equivalence
Date: 2020-08-11 07:19 pm (UTC)Thanks -- I do not remember seeing the full relativistic energy formula before.
Wikipedia uses "m0" instead of "m":
======
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence
For photons where m0=0, the equation reduces to E=pc.
======
Considering that momentum:
p = m * v[elocity] = m * c
we can calculate flying photon mass as:
m = E/c2
where "E" is electromagnetic energy of the flying photon.
Re: Full mass-energy equivalence
Date: 2020-08-11 07:30 pm (UTC)we can't.
m = m0 / sqrt(1 - v2/c2)
Re: Full mass-energy equivalence
Date: 2020-08-11 08:14 pm (UTC)But m0 for a photon is zero, right?
Therefore m will be zero too, right?
Re: Full mass-energy equivalence
Date: 2020-08-11 08:39 pm (UTC)(But v is c, so it is not so simple)
Re: Full mass-energy equivalence
Date: 2020-08-11 08:47 pm (UTC)... only if the photon does not move.
When photon moves -- it has mass (m, not m0).
So gravity interacts with the mass of a moving photon.
> v is c, so it is not so simple
Hmm, right.
But then what's the point to use this uncertain formula [m = m0 / sqrt(1 - v2/c2)]?
Re: Full mass-energy equivalence
Date: 2020-08-11 09:38 pm (UTC)Gravity-photon interaction
Date: 2020-08-11 09:45 pm (UTC)If gravity does not interact with the photon, then why does a photon have different behavior around bodies with higher masses (higher gravity)?
Re: Gravity-photon interaction
Date: 2020-08-12 06:17 am (UTC)If the gravity interacted with light in Newtonian way, you would need the mass of a moving photon. However, supposing its mass is nonzero, you should get it decelerate, when receding from a body with mass. This makes v not equal to c, denominator is no longer zero, the mass of photon computes to zero, and the Newtonian gravitational force acting on light turns to zero.
Why does the light appears to interact with massive bodies after all - that's the sign a new explanation is needed. One that doesn't depend on the mass of photon.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-11 08:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-11 08:51 pm (UTC)> you know some physics?
Yes.
I never claimed that my memory has 100% recall.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-11 09:15 pm (UTC)Hypothetical past predictions
Date: 2020-08-11 09:26 pm (UTC)So this is about you confusing "memorizing" vs "recall".
And about you not understanding that "evaluating" is an important component of understanding.
Re: Hypothetical past predictions
Date: 2020-08-11 10:48 pm (UTC)Rigid analysis
Date: 2020-08-11 11:02 pm (UTC)It is "all or nothing" for you.
Re: Rigid analysis
Date: 2020-08-11 11:42 pm (UTC)Knowing how the relativity term works is the most basic thing in relativity. I have not carefully read your long discussions on star evolution and how the space-time works. This could've been a medium-level stuff, if it were right, okay. It can be difficult sometimes to tell right from rubbish when people write stuff in social media, when they use vague language, sometimes do sarcasms, and there are always inaccuracies, blind spots, and no solid structure in the conversation. So I refrained from making comments on that part.
But now when I see that you literally have zero understanding of the most basic equation in special relativity, well, I am ready to make a judgement. Hear me! You have no understanding of special relativity: zero, nil, nada, nyet. Hence, you are not qualified to discuss general relativity.
There are different levels of understanding, sure, and yours is the complete and utter absence of it. And it's even amusing to a degree how a mature person can keep on going trying to justify his failure or somehow re-frame it as someone else's fault. Amusingly, I don't think you are even trolling us here, do you? You literally believe what you are saying, you actually believe that your opinion has some weight and you have some credibility in this subject, as well as in many others. Seriously, I've met a few people with skewed perception of their own abilities, it's not totally uncommon, but from this moment you probably lead my personal chart.
Troll vs anti-troll
Date: 2020-08-12 03:02 am (UTC)That only confirms that your ability to differentiate between different levels of knowledge - is quite weak. You struggle to even understand the concept of partial knowledge.
> It can be difficult sometimes to tell right from rubbish when people write stuff in social media
When I analyze your writings - most of the time I have no problem to classify your statements into "rubbish" vs "right" baskets.
> you literally have zero understanding
That is clearly "rubbish" basket.
> I am ready to make a judgement
That is correct.
However your judgement is rubbish.
> You have no understanding of special relativity
That is, clearly, rubbish.
> Hence, you are not qualified to discuss general relativity.
What you wrote here is triple rubbish, because:
1) I was qualified to discuss general relativity the first time I heard about general relativity (and my knowledge about general relativity was, actually, close to zero).
2) "Hence" cause-effect connection is rubbish, because lack of knowledge does not automatically disqualify from discussion.
3) I actually understand basic concepts of general relativity, and my understanding of general relativity is well above 99% of understanding of general population.
> yours is the complete and utter absence of it
It looks like you do misunderstand what "complete absence" mean.
> trying to justify his failure
What "failure" are you talking about?
> you are even trolling us here
I have advanced anti-troll skills.
This is my time to shine, because I communicate with a troll.
> You literally believe what you are saying
Correct. I do not like to lie and do not like to hide.
> you actually believe that your opinion has some weight
Correct.
> and you have some credibility in this subject
Correct.
However I suspect that you misunderstand word "some" (similar to how you misunderstand word "complete absence"), so you, probably, do not understand your own statement correctly.
> I've met a few people with skewed perception of their own abilities
Just for your information: all people have skewed perception of their own abilities, because evaluating people's ability is quite complex.
> you probably lead my personal chart
Yay!
Re: Troll vs anti-troll
Date: 2020-08-12 03:30 am (UTC)Физика или не физика, а что за фигня, каждый раз разговор об абстракциях переходит на разговор о твоей личности. Меня это как-то смущает. Что-то тут не так в нашей вселенной.
Re: Troll vs anti-troll
Date: 2020-08-12 06:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-12 02:54 pm (UTC)Oh, funny. I missed that part.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-14 11:03 pm (UTC)Как говорил один мой знакомый - большое Вам, человеческое, данки шон ! :-)
...давно не получал столько позитивных эммоций, от чтения обсуждения
no subject
Date: 2020-08-14 11:56 pm (UTC)Я тоже много узнал, и о физике, и о людях.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-15 12:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-08-15 03:02 am (UTC)И из ролика тоже: идея, что гравитация - вроде температуры, и может быть воображаема как голограмма, меня порадовала.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-15 09:54 pm (UTC)В принципе... завкафедрой, ИМО, более вменяемый, чем "ведущая". Вовремя уходит в кусты, и не слишком активно "топит" за всякие модные плюшки (типа "квантовой-гравитации"). :-)
...все остальные дети, ИМО, более-менее соответствуют своим возрастным рамкам, в смысле знаний/реакций. Включая китаянку -) ...она просто девочка :-) Для неё, видимо, было большим открытием что её эммоции имеют смысл. ...она "изучает" европейцев (ну или белых), они все так делают - мы им не очень понятны.
Ведущая, увы, полны швах. Её лютая повёрнутость на ТО... ...как бы это помягче :-) поражает, и несколько удивляет. ...ну и язык, манеры.... ...село неасфальтованое, сорри.
Увы, гравитация таки существует, поскольку наблюдаемые явления и их последствия, не отличаются от не-наблюдаемых. Принцип неопределённости сюда приплести никак, а значит что с кван-мехом и прочими мозговывихами на эту тему, можно расслабиться.
Если в голлограмме мы видим то, чего нет (мозг достраивает из-за фазо-разностного запаздывания), то с гравитацией скорее наоборот - мы "видим" очень маленькую часть общей картинки.
С гравитацией много всякого нехорошего, и переспективно неприятного.
Первая очевидность - скорость распространения взаимодействия. Она сильно быстрее скорости света, иначе мы бы не наблюдали того, что уже наблюдаем. (...Лаплас оценивал в 50 млн раз быстрее, современные прикидки - 10 в 14-й)
Второе - совершенно непонятен сам механизм. ...поле, частица - это аналогии, которые отчасти помогают предсказывать события, в очень узком диапазоне.
Гравитационное поле есть? ...при условии что мы способны внятно самим себе объяснить ЧТО такое поле - ответ на этот вопрос уже вероятен. :-)
Пытаться ловить гравитон (гипотетический), разумеется ещё более смешно чем "ловить" нейтрино :-)
...темодинамическая аналогия (температура - градиент потенциальной энергии), к сожалению, тоже не очень подходит.
Тут первый демон сидит в неполном соотствии с законом обратных квадратов (со всеми вытекающими головокружительными переспективами относительно геометрии и законов симметрии)
Второй - термодинамическое определение времени. Оно отличается и от квант-меха и от класс-меха, и от электроднамического, и от релятивистского (обоих сортов).
Попытки натянуть ужа на ежа, и приводят к появлению всяких страшилок типа чёрных дыр (ТБЗ), и т.д. :-)
...наверное должно удивлять (а может даже возмущать), что всякие глупости рассказывают люди со степенями... Но это давно такое. Официальная физика - откровенный балаган.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-16 11:28 am (UTC)Есть, правда, и другие идеи, где тоже гравитация и само пространство оказываются эмерджентными феноменами из свойств глобального квантового состояния.
Скорость распостранения гравитации видна по скорости гравитационных волн, которые и в теории и уже в экспериименте распространяются со скоростью света.
Вашу последнюю фразу стоило бы поставить в начало, она задает тон всему остальному.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-17 02:32 am (UTC)Я не умею заглядыват в головы людей (даже через ютуб), и поэтому не такой оптимист как Вы, относительно того "что имелось в виду". :-)
...совсем не уверен что такую "примитивную... фундаментальную" характеристику, как температура, ведущая, или даже "сам-эксперт-зав-кафедрой", смогли бы объяснить восьмилетнему ребёнку "на-пальцах".
Это же канал занимающийся популяризацией, ...или что?
К нашей вселенной пока не подходит никакая воображаемая геометрия, будьте реалистом.
Красивой игрушкой была теория энтропийной гравитации. На это имело смысл потратиться, не взирая на личности, хотя бы из спортивного интереса.
Вы пишите: "скорость распространения гравитации видна по скорости гр. волн..."
А, простите, как и чем это уже можно "посмотреть" ?
Опишите только сам принцип, без ссылок и выкладок.
Какую из трёх? Фраз, в смысле.
--------------
п.с. аспект времени Вы тактично не заметили, и правильно.:-) Извините, не удержался :-)
no subject
Date: 2020-08-17 08:23 pm (UTC)>Какую из трёх? Фраз, в смысле.
Последняя фраза там одна, из четырех слов.
>аспект времени Вы тактично не заметили
Я и не планировал по всем пунктам реагировать. Там что-то особенно ценное, о чем бы вы хотели поговорить?
no subject
Date: 2020-08-17 09:11 pm (UTC)Вы пишите: "скорость распространения гравитации видна по скорости гр. волн..."
Как и чем, это уже можно "посмотреть" ?
...если Вам не очень понятен вопрос, я его переформулирую;
Каким образом стало возможным "увидеть" распространение гр.волн ?
...пересказывать релятивизм не нужно. Отсылать к авторитетным источникам - тоже не нужно.
Постарайтесь своими словами, описать принцип работы устройства, регистрирующего так называемые гравитационные волны.
Или опишите опыт (эксперимент), в результате проведения которого, возможно сделать однозначные выводы о скорости распространения (так называемых) гравитационных волн.
:-) Хм :-)
Вас лично, Дмитрий, "зацепила" моя точка зрения об (так называемой) "официальной физике" ? :-)
Я и не планировал по всем пунктам реагировать.
...окей, а что Вы планировали?
Я "развёрнуто" отвечал Владу, относительно качества видеоролика на утубе.
Вы решили возразить. Я совешенно не против, но пока совершенно не понимаю, что именно Вы хотите сказать.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-17 10:34 pm (UTC)Только зачем вам мой пересказ своими словами? Такой вы наверняка уже много раз слышали, нового я ничего тут не скажу. Особенными подробностями именно экспериментальной части я не владею.
no subject
Date: 2020-08-18 12:03 am (UTC)----------------------
Итак, давайте разберёмся, детальнее.
Две перпендикулярные, длинные, трубки, со 100%-ми зеркалами в торцах, и полупрозрачным в точке сопряжения (пересечения трубок). По трубкам "запускается" лучик света, допустим от лазерого источника. Всё верно?
Длинна трубок, предположим, 20 метров (или 20 км). Свет, "пробегая" в разных направлениях, возвращается к исходной точке, в которой наблюдается интерференционная картинка. Всё верно?
...строго говоря, такое может наблюдаться в двух случаях - изменение длинны трубок, и изменение скорости света в разных направлениях. Смею предположить, что второй вариант, для Вас, представляется невозможной дикостью. (...в отличие от Лоренца, но это, разумеется несущественно) Поэтому будем рассматривать только первый вариант - изменение длинн трубок ...конец ремарки
Итак, у трубок поменялись размеры. У некоторых раньше, у некоторых, в другой части планеты - позже. Мы (условно) зафиксировали эти события по изменению интерфененционных картинок в разное время. Всё верно?
Какое событие, и на каких основаниях, предполагается причиной, вызвавшей вышеописанный эффект?